# Advice on 2nd hand server purchase needed

## MoonWalker

Ok I need your help. Got an purchase opportunity of a 2nd hand server, well actually there is a few to choose from and thought to ask here for some opinions regarding both hardware/brand (Dell or Compac = Intel ?)and $$ etc. It may be a good opportunity for a rather good and cheep replacement of my current production server running on a Celeron 433 and IDE  :Sad:  - or do you think they ask for too much? I have changed the price to $$ approx to my currency (Swedish) and I think prices generally are little higher here then in US. I know this isn't the latest, but there is not going to be any X etc. - just run mail, www and ftp serving approx 20-30 vhosts on a 100Mb/s connection (co-located). All boxes are SCSI if notting else is said and ready to go - except they lack Gentoo  :Smile: 

Note: I am NOT selling this, but (maybe) buying one item

 Noname 19" Rackserver Dual PII - 2xPII450, 512M, 9G $900 

 Compaq ProLiant 3000R - PII300, 192M, 3x4G $1000

 Compaq ProLiant 800 - PII400, 256M, 26.8G $1000

 Compaq Proliant 3000R - PIII550, 128M, 5x4G,  $1800 

 Dell PowerEdge 2200 - PII233, 128M, 4G $550

 Dell PowerEdge 2300 - PII450, 256M, 27G, $1050

 Dell PowerEdge 2300 - PII450, 256M, 37G, $1100

 Dell PowerEdge 2300 - PII350, 64M, 9G, $600

 Dell PowerEdge 300 - PIII800, 128M, IDE 20G $1250

 Dell PowerEdge 4100/180 - PPro180, 128M, 6x9G, $500 

 Dell PowerEdge 4200 - PII266, 192M, 4G, $600

 Dell PowerEdge 500sc - Cel900, 256M, IDE 20G, $750

 Dell PowerEdge 6100 - PPro 200, 512M, 54G $700

 Dell PowerEdge 6100 - PPro 200, 512M, 45G, $650

 Dell PowerEdge 6300 - PIIXeon 450, 512M, 54G $1500

 Dell PowerEdge 6300 - PIIXeon 450, 512M, 9G $1350

 Fujitsu Siemens Econel 10 - PIII933, 128M, IDE 20G, $1300 

 HP NetServer LH Pro PP200 - PP200, 224M, 1x2G/3x9G $450

 HP NetServer LPr PIII500 - 2xPIII500, 1024M, 2x18G $2000 

 Intel ISP 2150 Rack 2U - PIII600, 256M, 2x9G, $1300

 SUN StorEdge D1000 - 5 x 9G $1500

Ok, long list but always fun to have a choice  :Smile:   but ok, help me out here, I know it's a bit tricky with 2nd hand hardware. I'm basicly interested opinions of what is not worth the money, own experiences or reliability/speed etc or other knowledge you may have.  OR is 2nd hand in it self a bad idea - better to invest approx $800-1000 in a new Athlon/IDE box?

Thanks in advance for your opinion, it may help me making an wise choice.

/Joakim

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## delta407

I built my box -- a dual 1.0 GHz Pentium III with a full GB of RAM and 80 GB of disk -- from ebay, various online retailers, and a couple local shops for $700. If you're handy with a screwdriver and know all the parts you need to get, building a box really isn't hard and you get more bang/buck than buying Compaq.

Of course, name brands are (generally) more reliable because of huge testing budgets and support contracts, but boxen that have been 'gathered' can be very reliable as well.

Also, look at NewEgg; they have a lot of stuff and you can save a lot on shipping.

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## MoonWalker

Thank for rapid reply!

 *Quote:*   

> I built my box -- a dual 1.0 GHz Pentium III with a full GB of RAM and 80 GB of disk 

 

Is it SCSI?

 *Quote:*   

> from ebay, various online retailers, and a couple local shops for $700. If you're handy with a screwdriver and know all the parts you need to get, building a box really isn't hard and you get more bang/buck than buying Compaq. 
> 
> 

 

I'm handy and have built several boxes myself, actually I have 2 K6-2 400 boxes origine from being 386 once - can't push them any futher now though  :Smile: 

 *Quote:*   

> Of course, name brands are (generally) more reliable because of huge testing budgets and support contracts, but boxen that have been 'gathered' can be very reliable as well. 

 

I know and would normaly not paying for a name brand, but thought this may was an easy hardware solution replacing a box needy to just go go go, and for a reasonable price. I may end up building it myself, but thought to make use of the resourse here first, to make a good choice. Mostly I act first and think then - being rather impulsive   :Laughing: 

 *Quote:*   

> Also, look at NewEgg; they have a lot of stuff and you can save a lot on shipping.

 

But is this a good way when you are outside US? Actually I will visit US in oct/nov but can't wait that long... Need something nice for my Gentoo NOW!

/Joakim

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## delta407

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> Is it SCSI?

 

Not quite yet. I have a pair of 18 GB SCSI disks (from IBM), but I haven't put them in. (Long story...) Right now I'm on an 80 GB Maxtor I just bought for $70 after rebate; I can push 40 MB/s to the disk, so IDE isn't that bad.  :Wink: 

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> I'm handy and have built several boxes myself, actually I have 2 K6-2 400 boxes origine from being 386 once - can't push them any futher now though 

 

Well good.  :Wink: 

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> Mostly I act first and think then - being rather impulsive  

 

Think about thinking before you shell out $1000 for an underpowered box.

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> But is this a good way when you are outside US? Actually I will visit US in oct/nov but can't wait that long... Need something nice for my Gentoo NOW!

 

You could probably make some friends in the US of A to build it for you and then just ship it over in one package; my box is only ~30 pounds, and if you get it shipped slowly (by boat?), things won't be that expensive in the end.

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## MoonWalker

 *Quote:*   

> You could probably make some friends in the US of A to build it for you and then just ship it over in one package; my box is only ~30 pounds, and if you get it shipped slowly (by boat?), things won't be that expensive in the end.

 

Actually, my fiance is in the US right now on a work project, but she is not trusted - when it comes to computers  :Smile: . Will go there myself in shift of oct/nov to celebrate her birthday and bring her back home, but that's months ahead and can't really wait that long.

I know those 2nd hand boxes above are under powered in todays messures, and if I was running a NT server I would never thought of it, but now we are talking Linux and Gentoo - it's kinda different in terms resourse uses!

Of the above it really only 3 I'm thinking of: The Noname Dual PII450 rack (a bit small HD though), The Intel ISP PIII 600 and Dell 6300 PII450Xeon - but I may shall look around and see what else I can get for that money - in peices or all set. Or I just prug in a new disk with Gentoo in my current box - and buy my girl a nice birthday present   :Razz: 

/Joakim

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## delta407

...even with international shipping, you would probably be better off collecting your computer than buying one of them. If you don't need rackmount, you can usually save a couple hundred bucks; if you don't need a name brand, you can usually save another 10%.

Weigh your options (in more ways than one  :Wink: ); I'm sure you'll pick something.

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## MoonWalker

I have made my choice, skipping the old stuff and instead build me brand new box. need to look futher in forum for hints but I've got the impression a P4 is better to use then Athlon in a server environment (some would probably disagree). Have found a good supplyer with prices not so different the US prices...

Motherboard will be an ABit IT7 or ASUS P4B-533E with the new 845E chipset - have to investigate if this is supported in Gentoo though - anyone?

And bit thanks delta for being with me in my decision process  :Smile: 

/Joakim

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## delta407

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> I've got the impression a P4 is better to use then Athlon in a server environment (some would probably disagree).

 

I would disagree. Unless you're using GCC3, an Athlon will (usually) beat a P4 if they have the same "numbers" (P4 1.7 vs Athlon "1700").

Also, the previous generation is dirt cheap -- I got my dual P3 motherboard for $50 and each CPU ran me $100. Even that is overkill for 20-30 vhosts (as my box can do 20-30 users simultaneously without breaking a sweat). Unless you're doing some serious dynamic hosting, I would suggest looking into something around a Duron 1.1 GHz.

Be sure to give it plenty of RAM (aim for "way too much RAM"), because then sizable portions of your filesystem will be cached, improving overall performance dramatically.

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> Motherboard will be an ABit IT7 or ASUS P4B-533E with the new 845E chipset - have to investigate if this is supported in Gentoo though - anyone?

 

Ask [url]google.com/linux[/url]. Not many know about the /linux part, and it seems to be pretty reliable. If it works with any Linux kernel, it will work with Gentoo.

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## MoonWalker

 *Quote:*   

> I would disagree. Unless you're using GCC3, an Athlon will (usually) beat a P4 if they have the same "numbers" (P4 1.7 vs Athlon "1700"). 

 

I was actually thinking of gcc3 as that's what is ahead and if now shall get a new box. Btw most benchmarks I have seen it looks like P4 beats Athlon, but as you say any of them would probably be overkill, but it may grow  :Smile: 

Plenty of RAM you mean something like 1G or would 512M be OK? I think a dual system may be best suited to serve although also in benches I have seen it don't seam to make so much differance - not proper server tests though.

Duron? Na although it may be enough today you never know tomorrow, better go fo a not stripped cpu I think. I think AMD is good but what worries me is that so many seam to have problem with the chip sets.

Btw I have revised my MB choise a bit after looking around. Still feel P4 is right and MB with Lan and VGA onboard, which narows me down to MSI 845G MAX-L or Abit BG7, do think Abit is the better of them but have to wait a week+ for it while I can get the MSI right away. So probably go for that, a not so pricy P4 and lots of RAM, well 1G - then I shold be fine for some time  :Smile: 

/Joakim

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## pjp

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> Plenty of RAM you mean something like 1G or would 512M be OK?

 If you can afford 1G, go for it.  You mention not wanting a Duron because of 

tomorrow.  Same principle with RAM if not more so than the CPU.

 *Quote:*   

> I think AMD is good but what worries me is that so many seam to have problem with the chip sets.

 I have been intel free for years.  Never had a problem with an AMD cpu... K6 and Athlon.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just mentioning it.  Good luck with your P4.

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## digitalnick

im building a dual amd 2100 i have been with amd for some time ... only pentium i have or ever owned is my current lappy 700 pIII not bad but i guess im partial to amd.  i find that amd does a fine job in the server room especially considering you generally get more performance/ clock cycle and more bang/buck with amd being cheaper than intel so seriously give a thought to amd.

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## MoonWalker

 *Quote:*   

> i find that amd does a fine job in the server room especially considering you generally get more performance/ clock cycle and more bang/buck with amd being cheaper than intel so seriously give a thought to amd.

 

Ok I have notting agains AMD, may as well get 2 AMD instead of 1 Intel - but which chipset and mobo to go for - any recomendations? 

/Joakim

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## klieber

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> Ok I have notting agains AMD, may as well get 2 AMD instead of 1 Intel - but which chipset and mobo to go for - any recomendations?

 

Tyan seems to make pretty good Athlon MP mobos, though there's another post somewhere on these forums about someone that hates them, so YMMV.  :Smile: 

Best bet would be to look around the web for some Athlon MP mobo reviews -- that might help make your decision easier.

--kurt

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## digitalnick

I personally like asus boards I have the asus a7m266d nice board and got nice reviews you should check it out

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## MoonWalker

Well I will probably not go for a dual as it really would be overkill and and when I will be in need of it there probably are new better things out.

At the moment I lean over to try an Athlon thugh, just a matter of finding the right mobo. There is a few with integrated Lan and vga using the nForce chipset from nVidia - which is a pitty as it's not opensource. Also feel unsure wether it will cause compability problems as well?

EDIT: Regarding the video I simply don't need more then vga or svga as there will never be any X running. It just have to work.

/Joakim

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## klieber

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> At the moment I lean over to try an Athlon thugh, just a matter of finding the right mobo. 

 

If you're just looking for a single proc board, then I can recommend the Gigabyte 7VRXP.  It's what I use on my primary home machine.  Had it about a month and have been very happy with it.  Onboard LAN comes up in Gentoo no problem (modprobe 8139too) and I haven't had a single problem with it.

Tom's Hardware has a good overview of the latest crop of Athlon XP mobos.  You might read through that to see what they say.  (BTW, they like the Gigabyte 7VRXP as well.)

--kurt

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## delta407

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> Still feel P4 is right and MB with Lan and VGA onboard

 

Onboard LAN is historically slow. Shell out fifty bucks and get a nice Intel NIC, as the NIC does more so your motherboard can do less.

As far as Durons being "stripped down", a Duron 1.0 GHz outperforms a Pentium III 1.0 GHz. So, AMD's value line is stripped down enough to keep pace with Intel's expensive line.  :Very Happy:  (That's not true any more, as the P4 does offer healthy competition to the Athlon, and if code is compiled for the P4 it can run circles around an Athlon...)

Anyway, if you're still looking at an SMP setup, I would push Intel. Athlon MPs and MP server boards are still expensive (not as much as Xeons, but still not quite worth the premium) . If you want to run SMP, I would have to push Pentium IIIs. Motherboards are dirt cheap, CPUs are rather cheap (compared to P4s), and there's still plenty of performance to be had.

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## MoonWalker

 *Quote:*   

> Onboard LAN is historically slow. Shell out fifty bucks and get a nice Intel NIC, as the NIC does more so your motherboard can do less. 

 

Ahhh! I was just about taking a decission and here you come and trow me overboard again   :Very Happy:   I guess you are right, although an external can be used anyway, leaving one to gate a private domain zone - not applacable now though.

 *Quote:*   

> As far as Durons being "stripped down", a Duron 1.0 GHz outperforms a Pentium III 1.0 GHz. So, AMD's value line is stripped down enough to keep pace with Intel's expensive line.  (That's not true any more, as the P4 does offer healthy competition to the Athlon, and if code is compiled for the P4 it can run circles around an Athlon...) 

 

Hmm you confuse me... first you say Duron outperforms PIII and then glory P4 over Athlon... Has this something to do with GCC 3 maybe? That's a thought I been nurishing in my backhead, that whether gcc 2.95 or 3.1 is used kinda effect the choice of cpu - am I right?

 *Quote:*   

> Anyway, if you're still looking at an SMP setup, I would push Intel. Athlon MPs and MP server boards are still expensive (not as much as Xeons, but still not quite worth the premium) . If you want to run SMP, I would have to push Pentium IIIs. Motherboards are dirt cheap, CPUs are rather cheap (compared to P4s), and there's still plenty of performance to be had.

 

As english isn't my native lang I'm not sure but assume with SMP you mean Single Motherboard Processor (or likewise). Yes, a 2xcpu would be mor ethen overkill, but I don't like to and wont go for PIII, mainly reason in a year or so I can't get me a spare cpu if something happens (not likely though) and want this box last for some years to come. New PIII's isn't cheap either, not here anyway. So maybe I'm back at P4 again then. When I compare prices here the differance is not that huge, as long as not go for the absolute latest I2.4/A2.2 I can get a boxed P4 2.0 for $200 here all included, both fan and taxes  :Smile:  (you should know we have an astunning sales tax (VAT) here of 25%!   :Crying or Very sad:  )

EDIT: Sorry, a P4 1.8 for $200 it should be

/Joakim

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## pjp

 *delta407 wrote:*   

> the P4 does offer healthy competition to the Athlon, and if code is compiled for the P4 it can run circles around an Athlon

 Would this be primarily useful for heavy server, database (or similar) work, 

or would compiling a desktop system (P4 optimized) show noticeable results?

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## delta407

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> Hmm you confuse me... first you say Duron outperforms PIII and then glory P4 over Athlon... Has this something to do with GCC 3 maybe?

 

AMD beats Intel hands-down in the 600 MHz - 1.0 GHz range. However, once you get ahead of that, things get murky. Newer Athlons have a better FPU than the Pentium 4, which means that most games will run better on an Athon than a P4 of the same clock speed. Basically, Pentium 4s don't do so well unless your programs are compiled specifically for them.

That's not an option under Windows, but since you compile everything yourself with Gentoo, Pentium 4s can be very good. However, GCC2 can't quite cut it; GCC3, though, makes the Pentium 4 shine. At the same clock speed, code compiled with GCC3 will make a Pentium 4 beat an Athlon by a rather wide margin.

So, yes, the choice of compiler would dictate the choice of CPUs.  :Wink: 

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> As english isn't my native lang I'm not sure but assume with SMP you mean Single Motherboard Processor (or likewise).

 

SMP stands for "symmetric multi-processing", or having more than one CPU installed and running simultaneously. That was before I noticed "I don't want to go dual".  :Very Happy: 

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> Yes, a 2xcpu would be mor ethen overkill, but I don't like to and wont go for PIII, mainly reason in a year or so I can't get me a spare cpu if something happens (not likely though) and want this box last for some years to come.

 

Oh? You can still hunt down Pentium Pros, unopened, in their original boxes.

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> New PIII's isn't cheap either, not here anyway.

 

Each of my 1.0 GHz PIIIs came to $110, which is a whole lot cheaper than both Athlon MPs or Pentium 4s.

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## klieber

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> Ahhh! I was just about taking a decission and here you come and trow me overboard again  

 

No matter what decision you make, you're likely going to end up with more hardware than you need.  I wouldn't spend hours and hours agonizing over Athlon vs. Intel.  Decide which one you're more comfortable and go with it.

 *delta407 wrote:*   

> Onboard LAN is historically slow. Shell out fifty bucks and get a nice Intel NIC, as the NIC does more so your motherboard can do less. 

 

Historically, yes.  However, I've seen 65-75Mbps on my Gigabyte mobo.  That's pretty darn good for any NIC.  Maybe you can eek out another 5Mbps from a PCI NIC, but will it make web site download any faster?

--kurt

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## abhishek

For a single proc athlon board i really like the soyo dragon(they have a whole line of varietes of theese now, even some for p4). the nic comes up with noprobs(via-rhine) the sond comoes up with no probs. For a dual board, well i wish i had 1  :Smile: . i seem to remember reading some god revoews of tyans.

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## delta407

 *klieber wrote:*   

>  *delta407 wrote:*   Onboard LAN is historically slow. Shell out fifty bucks and get a nice Intel NIC, as the NIC does more so your motherboard can do less.  
> 
> Historically, yes.  However, I've seen 65-75Mbps on my Gigabyte mobo.  That's pretty darn good for any NIC.  Maybe you can eek out another 5Mbps from a PCI NIC, but will it make web site download any faster?

 

That is not to say that all onboard NICs are slow.  :Wink:  Many, however, have latency issues, and most motherboard manufacturers don't particularily want to spend the extra cash to give high-caliber performance for something that most of the people aren't going to notice anyway.

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## MoonWalker

Well well it dwell into a long tread this... klieber you are right in a way, it's not much to fuzz about, both cpu's will be more then enough. However, having a good overlook and evaluation of the options is always a good path to take even if it ends up at you initial hunch. Hopefulle this thread also have and future will bring something of value to people in my situation.

Anyway, conclusion: I aint gonna play some Windows or other games, but will use gcc 3.1 and there will be heavy use of mysql db's through php. So I will go for a P4 as it feels better aimed to drive a server even if both types of cpu's are over kill at the moment. The new P4 chipsets feels more stable as well then the Athlon dito - but it may just is a subjective judgment. Bottom line, I feel comfortable with it.

Now only remains to find the right mobo. I have chosen to go for the i845G chip and a bord including both onboard video and lan. Video becourse I only need a shitty vga card to run a console and it would cost more and btw those new boards all run AGP4 or > 1.5v only. So THAT would really be wallet overkill as there still don't exsist any shitty such ones. If you wan't more graphics power it always posible to plug in an external card. Same thing with Lan and it's also good to have as a "backup" when running a server. If the nic goes down on a saterday night you can have it back up on line quick, being available. The i845G chipset have better memory support also then i845E which don't support DDR333 - in case you want it.

My supplier offers 2 such mobos, Abit BG7 and MSI 845G MAX-L being in stock at the moment (I'm too urgent to wait for a unconfirmed delivery date). But to get there I thought to do something I havn't done before ofered by this board - running a Poll - so then litterally close this thread.

Cudos to all helped me out here!

/Joakim

P.S Regarding HD's I never run anything else then IBM - never had a HD crash and great performance.

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## rac

 *MoonWalker wrote:*   

> P.S Regarding HD's I never run anything else then IBM - never had a HD crash and great performance.

 

Better stock up on them, then.  IBM is selling its hard drive business to Hitachi: http://www.ibm.com/news/us/2002/06/033.html

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## MoonWalker

 *Quote:*   

> Better stock up on them, then. IBM is selling its hard drive business to Hitachi: http://www.ibm.com/news/us/2002/06/033.html

 

opps! Thanks 4 info, yeah I may better do... although I alreaddy have a good pile of them but they start to get pretty old - good shit last long you know  :Smile: 

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## 3x9

Moonwalker

You seem to be more  side-tracked than helped from the obvious interest in your needs.

It boils down to this - it's your money,   your  final  decisions.    Only  you hopefully

understand what your future needs really will be.  If it is  a  business or just fun & games

or if money is or not a problem,  ultimately  these will  point the way.

Reliability is often more a factor than  performance.

For a server, given the  small load factors you  stated,  more than one CPU or  Name-branded  or rack format is  not indicated.    As  Delta407 pointed out,  use a little

pre-thought, & build your own from what is  available to you.

As for  components,  avoid Tyan M/brds (dual) like poison.  Linux Journal Magazine

featured an article on building  as "Ultimate Linux Box"  that generated a flurry of buyers

following the  parts quoted.   Go to the follow-up & see that  Tyan  is now in BIG Trouble

from unhappy  users.    As for on-board Lan, for your needs, again,  why sweat it ?

Bear in mind, however - on/board  anything is never the quality as  add-in.

For that matter,   NIC cards  3Com is generally  conceded as  the better, Intel changes

specs  all too often.

For all else,  pay more attention to  hard-drive selection,   quality of Ram,  premium power

supply  (Especially enough power)   Compilers, as all software, will keep changing,  good

hardware  (not  necessarily cutting-edge  - as note,  Pentium 3 or Duron )   has already

proven to be  solid performers.   You were talking of server useage, not ultimate game-box.

Your blind  haste is a  sure call for  con-artists to  try you out.

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## corrs_fan

If the website/DB would be fairly heavily utilised then 2 lower spec duals eg P3 1GHz or 2 athlon 1200's would outrun one single fast cpu anyday, simply because if done right, all work is split equally over the two cpus. 

A popular dual cpu site has recently upgraded its main webserver/DB server to a dual P3 outfit, with sterling results.  

Also Ive had lots of AMD CPUs' recently and necver had any faults with them, i did have to basically revuild my system round my board and cpu's since the stuff i had was crap. But its now rockstable 24x7x365. those with problems are typically the ones who dont spend enough on the better quality boards/power supplies etc.

Lastly the branded boxes thing. They typically come with support and thats why its better not always just building your own, especially if its for a company, who rely on said server. If i buy a dell i know i can phone up at 6pm one night, and if i convince them its really urgent, ill get a guy out first thing the next morning, or if their too busy - just later on that day, for up to 3 years down the line, without extra cost, depending on the model. these things are invaluable when you dont want the hastle of supporting a box, especially a server.

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## rommel

i would look more into that sun just for the hell of it , but probably would just build my own system...for that kinda money you could get a pretty fast machine

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## corrs_fan

<i> Dell PowerEdge 500sc - Cel900, 256M, IDE 20G, $750 </i>

Got ot be the worst value system there.  

that sun looks to be not too bad, especially if youd be running solaris on it. if not for the cost..ouch...

Do be carefull with the dells though they have a habit of not sticking with writen specs  :Sad:  as i found to my cost once. Also very proprietry too, then again they all are but i think less so than dell.

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