# Have any searching techniques to share?

## dunbar

In another forum, klieber promoted a searching tip:

 *Quote:*   

> 
> 
> Learn how to join words together using boolean operators. Instead of searching for "linux kernel problem" search for, "linux AND kernel AND problem". You will get a much smaller result set. Another example; "linux AND (debian OR redhat)".
> 
> 

 

I've met some search sites that used that syntax; but very few web search engines I've met still use it. Years ago, yes, everything used that syntax. 

FWIW, the syntax seems to work here in the forum search, so that's good to know.  :Smile: 

Quoting Google:

 The "AND" operator is unnecessary -- we include all search terms by default. 

Quoting WiseNut:

The following word was ignored in your query because it is too common: "AND"

Using 'AND' becomes a passive failure (passive refers only to Google and WiseNut in this message).

In fact, if you enter the "linux AND kernel AND problem" string in Google (exactly as given, with double quotes), the Google search result is forced to match that string within the double quotes.... reducing the search results to run-on sentences (' Just yesterday, I had linux and kernel and problems on my home PC...')  :Shocked:  instead of producing pages where linux, kernel, and problem all appear on the page (per the intentions of the proposed syntax).

HotBot uses AND, but... when was the last time I used HotBot since Google arrived? HotBots results seem iffy compared to newer search engines such as Google and Wisenut.

Google is the engine of choice for me, but I'm not well informed.

That all raises a good idea for a thread:

What are your favorite methods for understanding a problem on your Linux PC?

Do you search websites?

Which search Engines?

Do you bookmark specific pages which are hidden from easy websearches?

Do newbies frequently overlook certain local documents?

Don't say 'man tar' is good for a newbie (go look for yourself)!

And tell us newbies some techniques for getting help under typical newbie conditions.... You know, XFree86 just crashed, or we just 'rm -Rf * /' ed ourself.

(I loved it when Xfree86 crashed and the necessary help files were HTML..... and without a GUI, I had no browser. Lynx was not installed: Mandrake never installs it, but it is on their install CD!!))

Remember, the forum I chose was Newbies.

Here is one obvious tip:

Try  http://www.google.com/linux this places Google in the 'Linux' frame of mind... Google will trim the search results you get so that you only get results from the Linux realms, great for eliminating Macintosh and Windows responses to similar questions.

Do tell - what made information made your day?

----------

## klieber

 *dunbar wrote:*   

> What are your favorite methods for understanding a problem on your Linux PC?
> 
> Do you search websites?
> 
> Which search Engines?
> ...

 

To address these three points:

I use Google for 99% of my searching.  I use Yahoo for the other 1% when I'm looking for a company home page and Google doesn't have it, for whatever reason. (rare)

Absolutely.  Several times per day.

Google, Google, Google and Yahoo.   :Smile:   I rarely have a reason to use other search engines.  On occasion, I'll use groups.google.com to search usenet postings as well.  (but that's still Google, in my book  :Smile: )

 *Quote:*   

> Do newbies frequently overlook certain local documents?

 

yes, the man pages.  (see below)  Also, the log files in /var/log/

 *Quote:*   

> Don't say 'man tar' is good for a newbie (go look for yourself)!

 

It may not be easy to understand for a newbie, but man pages are one of the best linux references available.  The more you use them, the easier they become to understand.  (just like linux)  Another good resource are the 'info' pages (info <command>)  I don't use this all that much since I'm stubborn and set in my ways, but a lot of other people swear by it.

 *Quote:*   

> And tell us newbies some techniques for getting help under typical newbie conditions.... You know, XFree86 just crashed, or we just 'rm -Rf * /' ed ourself.

 

Well, if you just rm -rf /'ed yourself, you're pretty much fscked.  Restore from backup.  (you do keep a backup, right?  :Smile: )  Of course, you should never use root unless you absolutely have to.  If you're not logged in as root, rm -rf / won't take your system down.  

However, for other errors, such as XFree86 problems, /var/log/* usually has some information in there that's pertinent (if not easy to understand) to the problem at hand.  Copy that error message (or a part of it), paste it into google and you can usually get a general sense for what's causing your problem.  Refine from there.

Another method -- we get a lot of, "Application X won't start correctly" in these forums.  Try starting it from a command line and you'll (usually) get verbose output that indicates what the problem is.  (again, it may not be easy to decipher, but google is your friend)

 *Quote:*   

> (I loved it when Xfree86 crashed and the necessary help files were HTML..... and without a GUI, I had no browser. Lynx was not installed: Mandrake never installs it, but it is on their install CD!!))

 

Always install command line tools -- never rely solely upon GUI tools for exactly this reason.  Command line tools are usually very, very small and don't take up a lot of space.  XFree86, OTOH, is very, very large and generally has lots of problems (through bugs, poor user configs or whatever) so you never want to depend on XFree86 working correctly.

I encourage others to post to this thread as well.  I'm going to make it sticky for a few days to ensure it gets maximum attention.

--kurt

----------

## Beavis

I find almost all my answers on google groups... sometimes it takes a few times rewording your search to find exactly what you're looking for. 

If you are using google, take a look at Google Help.  It shows examples on different ways to refine your search.

Beavis

----------

## huw

Pasting the error messages you've got into google can often pull up lots of useful advice as it tends to retrieve mail-list archives where people with the same problem as you have had help fixing it.

----------

## jay

An excellent swiss knife tool is IMHO midnight commander. I has a small editor that is capable to read HTML and gzipped helpfiles without any special command.

Things that are a must on the command line:

mc

lynx

nmap

wget

ftp

----------

## klieber

 *jay wrote:*   

> Things that are a must on the command line:

 

Don't forget 'man'  :Smile: 

--kurt

----------

## jay

Using a localized version of a browser can make a HUGE difference in displaying the search results. The best idea is IMHO to use a english version and add as much language settings you are able to understand. 

Another good technique is, searching special domains. For example, when I look for anything Xfree related I force google to search with my string in the xfree.org domain exclusively. This will often give you more clearer an precise results.

----------

## slik

 *dunbar wrote:*   

> 
> 
> Don't say 'man tar' is good for a newbie (go look for yourself)!
> 
> 

 

Info pages for GNU tools (like tar) are generally more complete than their man page counterparts, indexed and everything!   If you want an easy to navigate (with arrow keys) info browser (command line)

```

# emerge pinfo

```

 *dunbar wrote:*   

> 
> 
> or we just 'rm -Rf * /' ed ourself.
> 
> 

 

Just to note that reiserfs does NOT have undelete capabilities.. ext2 does (maybe ext3 too?)

----------

## huw

 *Quote:*   

> Just to note that reiserfs does NOT have undelete capabilities.. ext2 does (maybe ext3 too?)

 

Eh? depends how desparate you are to get the data back.... to *really* erase something you need to overwrite the sectors on the HD where that data used to exist. 

```
man shred 
```

 *Quote:*   

> Overwrite the specified FILE(s) repeatedly,  in  order  to
> 
>        make it harder for even very expensive hardware probing to
> 
>        recover the data

 

----------

## dunbar

 *jay wrote:*   

> An excellent swiss knife tool is IMHO midnight commander. I has a small editor that is capable to read HTML and gzipped helpfiles without any special command.
> 
> Things that are a must on the command line:
> 
> mc
> ...

 

Thanks for the tip regarding mc being able to read html - I did not know that, and I've been using Mandrake for over a year now!

----------

## dunbar

 *huw wrote:*   

> Pasting the error messages you've got into google can often pull up lots of useful advice as it tends to retrieve mail-list archives where people with the same problem as you have had help fixing it.

 

This works great if

you are already a Linux user who know how to cut and paste CLI text,

can still run X,

have a nonfatal, nonfreezing error,

and can surf from the box which generated the error.

Many 'newbies with problems' can't:

copy Linux CLI text,

launch a text based browser (if such browser is even installed),

surf to google or a forum to generate a new message pasting the CLI text, post it and then wait for an answer.....?

(Me, I always get stopped by one of the following:

Box froze,

Xfree86 was the error and does not run,

Can't copy CLI text,

Can't launch Lynx because distro of the day did not install it by default (newbies use defaults, believe me),

Can't surf because the ISP is netzero, requiring Windows,

So I have to post the next day from work, on the sly, which means I forget the text...)

Not to be insensitive; Yes, posting the actual text of the error message is a great help in diagnosing a problem.

----------

## delta407

Well, if you can't cut and paste because it's a fatal freezing error, you could always get a piece of paper and write it down... most Linux newbies understand the "handwriting interface".  :Very Happy: 

As far as getting help with a dead box, you will have to find another computer to send a message with or use one of your lifelines (phone a friend is most helpful in this case).

Posting the error message is not a great help, it is often the only way to figure out what to fix. "X broke" doesn't help anyone, now does it?

----------

## dunbar

Thats it, then - the best 'search tips and techniques' are 'search the web' and 'rtfm'??

Gentooers are supposed to be better than that.  :Shocked: 

How about posting about sites that explain how to diagnose a Linux problem to 'recently ex-Windows' users? That would be a neat site to present troubleshooting techniques, if such a site existed..... Does anyone know of one or two such sites? Surely would make readers happy if you'd post one. I think searching for a solution implies finding a solution. Newbies like to be self sufficient once is a while!   :Rolling Eyes: 

----------

## delta407

 *dunbar wrote:*   

> How about posting about sites that explain how to diagnose a Linux problem to 'recently ex-Windows' users?

 

Yeah, right here.  :Smile: 

Seriously, though, there is quite a learning curve for the "uninitiated", so to speak. From what I've found, the only way to get good at troubleshooting computers is to work with the thing that may break; hence, an audience of Gentoo-ers are infinitely more helpful than leaving a newbie with an inconclusive troubleshooting guide or man pages.Last edited by delta407 on Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

----------

## orkid

Believe me, the curve is steep, and you might get discouraged along the way (I have many times). But you come back to it  :Smile: 

----------

## klieber

 *dunbar wrote:*   

> Thats it, then - the best 'search tips and techniques' are 'search the web' and 'rtfm'??
> 
> Gentooers are supposed to be better than that. 

 

IMO, those are the best search tips and techniques.  I'm able to answer 90% - 95% of my problems either by 'man <command>' or searching google.

Yes, it's more difficult for newbies, but so is riding a bicycle.  The only way to learn how to do it is to do it.  Then, once you get more experienced with it, it becomes second nature.

--kurt

----------

## huw

 *Quote:*   

> Posting the error message is not a great help, it is often the only way to figure out what to fix. 

 

Exactly. After all that *is* the point of error messages.   :Wink: 

----------

## maystorm

 *delta407 wrote:*   

> Well, if you can't cut and paste because it's a fatal freezing error, you could always get a piece of paper and write it down... most Linux newbies understand the "handwriting interface". 

 

[irony]

No, I've to disagree here; since most Linux newbies have a Windoze background they only know how to cut'n'paste... They even wouldn't remember that there is something as powerful as paper...   :Wink: 

[/irony]

----------

## slik

For some good linux resources (programming to administration to pretty much everything else) check out www.linuxwala.com.  Nice central repository of all things linux (documentation related)  well laid out.. some of the info is a bit outdated, but definately a great place to start.

----------

## klieber

unsticking.  moving over to tips & tricks.

--kurt

----------

## dunbar

 *maystorm wrote:*   

>  *delta407 wrote:*   Well, if you can't cut and paste because it's a fatal freezing error, you could always get a piece of paper and write it down... most Linux newbies understand the "handwriting interface".  
> 
> [irony]
> 
> No, I've to disagree here; since most Linux newbies have a Windoze background they only know how to cut'n'paste... They even wouldn't remember that there is something as powerful as paper...  
> ...

 

Ouch. With my penmanship... double ouch.

----------

## chatwood2

I have recently found http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/categories.html very usefull in learning how to do something (setup firewall, software RAID install, fdisk information, etc).  It is not all that useful for fixing a problem like XFree86 crashing, but if you want to learn it is great.

 - Chris

----------

## fghellar

A "real world" example...  :Wink: 

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=6970#35454

----------

## des

Two tips:

I have a devil of a time remembering the thousands of switches and options on the command line, man works, but often faster for me is the --help option, standard on about 95% of the common utilities.

```
tar --help | more
```

Also, grep is wonderfull, love it !

```
tar --help | grep "bunzip"
```

Another usefull thing I started a long time ago was my own little cheatsheet, it contains hints and tricks that I've stumbled across, and know I'll never remeber, and lots of things I've looked up twice. 

```
grep -A5 -i "drives" ~/cheatsheet
```

```

cat >> ~/cheatsheet

DRIVES

=====

testing:

hdparam -Tt

^c

```

----------

## dunbar

 *jay wrote:*   

> An excellent swiss knife tool is IMHO midnight commander. I has a small editor that is capable to read HTML and gzipped helpfiles without any special command.
> 
> Things that are a must on the command line:
> 
> mc
> ...

 

Wow, I missed this post! Thanks a lot!

----------

## dunbar

 *klieber wrote:*   

>  *jay wrote:*   Things that are a must on the command line: 
> 
> Don't forget 'man' 
> 
> --kurt

 

Hmmm, ran into a dstro the other day (ahem, not Gentoo) which did not put their own (expletive deleted) commands into man pages. That distros install page tells you, the newbie, to use a certain command to add packages after installing, but a man page for that command does not exist!!

----------

## huhmz

Don't forget the stuff in /usr/share/doc it can be really helpful.

Also if you don't like Midnight Commander you can read gziped documents with:

```
zcat file.gz | less
```

----------

## maystorm

Who is it who doesn't like Midnight Commander?   :Cool: 

It's about time to evangelise this guy/gal...   :Razz: 

----------

## raptor

mcedit is my editor of choice...

mc -s for using mc ever telnet/ssh

F2 - to zip/unzip tar/untar files and directories...

I just changed my /usr/lib/mc.menu so that instead of rcp do scp, so now I can copy selected files to other machines over ssh :") (didn't read the help much yet, but coping from other-machine to current dir will be easy to do also)

mc.ext is excelent to enable browsing tar.gz and other files... there was even a script somewhere that u can browse InterbaseDB ( not hard to be done to other db's). The hard thing i didn't found those days when i looked at it was to have some shell-controlled dialog-popups so that I can insert say "SELECT * FROM table" OR "INSERT * "

I think the mc was discontinued as a project and I really sorry for that 'cause I think it is the swis-army knife of linux console...

what else it can colorize your code ..... when u mark one of the brackets in  code it lighten the other one ...

and so on and so on.... :")

 *dunbar wrote:*   

>  *jay wrote:*   An excellent swiss knife tool is IMHO midnight commander. I has a small editor that is capable to read HTML and gzipped helpfiles without any special command.
> 
> Things that are a must on the command line:
> 
> mc
> ...

 

----------

## dunbar

 *maystorm wrote:*   

> Who is it who doesn't like Midnight Commander?  

  Well, I must admit that before jay posted in this thread, I had no idea that MC was able to read HTML, so that was a very bright light to this newbie! Yes, I do love MC, now that I know what it can do!

I remember an early issue: "There I was, watching XFree 3.X collapse due to my twiddling, when I discovered after the crash that all of that distros documents were HTML, and I had no idea that lynx even existed. Sad day for that install: I blew it away because I couldn't get anything to read html information on how to fix X." Knowing about MC being able to read HTML (exM$ people will always expect a browser to be GUI) would have been real handy on that day.

One technical clarification: I have personally used lynx many times before that day, even under W98SE, but that install was blown off because I had been told repeatedly that man pages were where the answers were - I knew man pages were cli, so I figured I was all set! What a lousy way to treat anyone: tell them to call anytime then steal their telephone.

----------

## omie

fravia, the fine gentleman who once ran a fine art of cracking site, now runs an art of searching site.  http://www.searchlores.org

a quick tip for searching gentoo forums:

the default option for searching is "Search for any terms or use query as entered."  this, imho, is not very useful when searching for something like "install gnome2", etc. because it will pull anything with "install" and anything with "gnome2"

for better results use the "Search for all terms" option.  it will pull selections with both "install" and "gnome2" only.

enjoy.

----------

## dunbar

I agree, the search functions within forums may have defaults which are not always useful.

I have learned the hard way that certain forum software search functions can produce errors that are defective.... I searched for a post which clearly had a specific phrase in the title, but the search failed to find it.

In fact, that forum suffers from a search error 'wrinkle': results showed that for 7 months, the number of posts that said Linux and Windows in the same post was 15 posts total, yet before/after that period of time, there was consistantly one or more posts per day with the same search string.

It was a big eye opener to learn that the benign search function can have quality issues! vBulletin version 2.2.2, for those for whome the information might matter. Coulda been a database issue, though.

----------

