# (SOLVED) Single SATA HD to PSU power connector, PC hangs

## schitthoch3

Hi

I hope you don't mind posting this hardware issue here. I have the following problem when all my hardware is connected. When I turn on the PC, all lights turn on, fans as well, but then all fans stop after 3 seconds before going into POST. The lights stay on and i have no other choice than to turn the PC off by pressing the power button 10 seconds.

Everything runs smoothly if I plug out the PSU power connector of the SATA harddisk. The connected SATA disk is my only harddrive in the PC.

The PSU (350W) has way more power than the system would need (~250W). It ran for a year now with an old IDE Harddisk i removed a few weeks ago. Since then i was able to boot sometimes after trying 10 or more times to power it up. But since a week it never gets to POST anymore. I have no other SATA drive, nor PC with SATA connectors to try the disk in another system.

Is the harddisk dead? Or could there be another problem?

BR//sh2Last edited by schitthoch3 on Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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## eccerr0r

fans stop but LEDs turn on?  Which LEDs? Power LEDs?

Still somewhat sounds like a power supply issue, but could be HDD.  I haven't run into the case where a faulty HDD ended up causing the machine to shut down.

What brand/model PSU is it?  I once got a "400W" PSU that seemed to be designed for much less than that.  It eventually died, and when I took it apart, I noticed the poor/insufficient design.

Unfortunately it's hard to debug hardware given what we have today.  The easiest way is to swap other hardware which seems to not be an option in your case...  Do you know someone else to swap with?  Since you have a SATA drive, how are you connecting it to the machine?  What computer do you have (and video card)?

If you came up with 250W with some online calculator I think that 350W may be a little low for margin purposes, especially if it's a low quality PSU.

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## NeddySeagoon

schitthoch3,

I expect the problem is the peak power required to start your system.

If you look carefully on the PSU label, as well as the 350W total load, you will find figures for each voltage individually, and sometimes for the 3.3v and 5v combined.

These other ratings mean that the power supply can run out of capacity well before it reaches the 350W maximum load.

If all you have done is swap drives, compare the power requirements voltage by voltage between the two drives.

Does the system POST when you put the old drive back ?

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## schitthoch3

 *eccerr0r wrote:*   

> fans stop but LEDs turn on?  Which LEDs? Power LEDs?

 

Yes, just the PC Power LED, i have no HD activity LED.

 *eccerr0r wrote:*   

> Still somewhat sounds like a power supply issue, but could be HDD.  I haven't run into the case where a faulty HDD ended up causing the machine to shut down.
> 
> What brand/model PSU is it?  I once got a "400W" PSU that seemed to be designed for much less than that.  It eventually died, and when I took it apart, I noticed the poor/insufficient design.

 

At the first glance it looks like good quality. Coba AP-350X, 12cm Variable Fan, cooling rips aso. It is a low noise PSU, not best in efficiency, but ok.

 *eccerr0r wrote:*   

> Do you know someone else to swap with?  Since you have a SATA drive, how are you connecting it to the machine?  What computer do you have (and video card)?

 

- The PSU has one single SATA power connector

- MB is an Aopen P4i65G with two SATA and two IDE connectors. I am using the first SATA for the Harddisk

- 1x Plextor IDE DVD-RW 8x/24x connected to second IDE

- 1x MSI GF5500FX Passive cooled AGP

- 2x 512MB Kingston DualChannel DDR1

- 1x Hauppauge 350 PVR PCI

- 1x Technotrend 2300 DVB-C PCI

- Case Zalman HD160 plus with LCD connected to USB.

- 3x Case Fan 80cm

 *NeddySeagoon wrote:*   

> If all you have done is swap drives, compare the power requirements voltage by voltage between the two drives. Does the system POST when you put the old drive back ?

 

Of course i tried booting with DVD-RW, Fans and LCD power disconnected, 1x RAM aso to drive down power usage but it does not help. The system ran for over a year with this config and an additional IDE Harddisk i removed, so there is less power need then there was before. The problem appeared a few weeks after having the IDE harddisk already removed. Unfortunatly i cannot put the old IDE drive back. It seems just to be the SATA power connector responsible for the issue. But i wonder if the data is lost ...

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## NeddySeagoon

schitthoch3,

Its most likely the PSU or the motherboard.

Remove all the plug in cards including the video card. Disconnect the CD and hard drives and all the case fans.

Leave only the CPU fan. 

You can't get the load down much below that - maybe remove one stick of RAM too.

Its still unlikely to POST but if it runs for more than 3 seconds, you should hear the POST beeps.

If that works, add things back one at a time. First the hard drive, then the video card.

Google tells that your PSU is rated as follows

110-240V 

• passive PFC 

• +3.3V: 28A 

• +5V: 35A 

• +12V: 15A 

• combined Power +3.3V & +5V: 200W 

• total combined Power: 325W 

• -5V: 0.5A 

• -12V: 0.8A 

• 5Vsb: 2.5A

From an image of your motherboard, the CPU is operated from the +12v as it has the extra connector between the CPU and the back of the case (the face where PCI cards expose on card connectors).

15A is a bit mean on the 12v for such an arrangement. The case fans will want about 1 Amp each. The hard drive will want about 1A for the spin motor. 

The 35A on the 5v will be largely unused.

Something else to check at the top of the image, around the +12v connector for the CPU are 4 tall cylinders. These belong to the Vcore regulator for the CPU.

They must not have domed tops, nor be leaking onto the motherboard.  Likewise, to the right of the CPU socket are 6 more tall cylinders. They are another part of the Vcore regulator for the CPU. They must be in good condition too.  The 4 at the top are the input filter, the 6 at the side are the output filters.  These 10 capacitors get a very hard life. If they are domed or leaking they are not doing their job and the CPU will not operate properly, if at all.

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## LesCoke

I would say it is a weak / failing PSU.  If you can peer through the FAN to where the power leads are soldered inside the PSU, I would check the capacitors (tall cylinders) inside there as well.  I just finished replacing the capacitors on the exact same model ASRock P4i65G motherboard, the caps in my Antec 550W PSU also required replacing.  This motherboard is especially hard on the output capacitors.  in a small / mid tower case, there is not enough airflow between the CPU heat sink and the underside of the PSU.  Since your PSU has the 120mm fan in that position, you should be in slightly better shape than the system I'm rebuilding.

With that hardware list, I would say 325W is a bit underpowered even if the PSU is honest about what it can supply.

Les

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## schitthoch3

Hi, thank you for the input. Appreciate it.

As I said, the system ran for a year, so there should be no problem with the PSU.

BUT, you got me on the capacitors. As i remember when I fixed the CPU-heatsink it needed a lot of space, I bended the input filters away from the CPU sink (not on purpose of course). They have no domed tops, but probably are in bad condition.

But replacing them is not an option for me I guess, as i am not so much into tinkering electronics.

I will try to run a minimal system and report here. If it will not run, i suppose it's the motherboard then, especially because the "freeze" happened only a few times in the beginning and became more and more of a problem. This could definitely lead to capacitors, right?

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## NeddySeagoon

schitthoch3,

The capacitors degrade with age and heat.

The fact that it all worked a year ago means it was ok, or at least it was adequate then.

Its aged a year since then.

Replacing the capacitors is something for someone with reasoable soldering skills to do.

If you go down this route get good quality replacement parts and replace all 10 parts we have been discussing.

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## schitthoch3

@NeddySeagoon and all the others

Thank you for all your help. I'd never dare to solder such a thing. But you have been right from the first time. I took out the AGP card and the Hauppauge PVR-350 PCI as i took them for the biggest power users.

And guess what: PC is up and running again. PSU capacitor aging might be the reason for this, as this is a dedicated MythTV combined Front-/Backend and therefore in operation about 10h/day (although on most of the time on low CPU usage and system load, what made me think that this PSU would be enough).

I should have trusted more on your expertise.   :Rolling Eyes:  And just learnt that the 12V connector is not only for CPU, but also for AGP, PCI, Fans (what the heck!) ...

Anyway, you  made my day. Thanks a lot.

Just saw your signature, and this is the only harddisk i have no data backup of. That's what i am doing right now. Then i'll go for a decent PSU.

I have just one more question, what was the bottleneck: +12V or Total output power? As i have just identified modern PSUs with 550W and still 15A on +12V

SOLVED.

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## NeddySeagoon

schitthoch3,

I suspect the problem is the +12v rather than the total power.  The total power figure is misleading. In your case, you have 35A at 5v, which is 175W, and 28A ar 3.3V, which is 92.5W. However, most of that 5v capacity is wasted as very few things in a PC use 5v any more - they have mostly migrated to 3.3v

Most modern PSUs have several seperate 12v suppies. Say one for the 12v for the CPU and another for the hard drives. They will have the 12v supplies rated separately on the label. Its up to you to ensure that you keep within the limits of each +12v supply. They do not come from the converter in the PSU.

Do not get a cheap PSU. They are a false economy.  PC PSUs are commodity products, you get what you pay for.

Look at cheap ones, look at mid price ones, look at high price ones ... all at the same total power. Then pick a mid range one that has the connectors you need and a few spare.

Choose a PSU that can provide more power then you need right now for two reasons.

1. You will be able to add things if you want to.

2. Running the PSU at a lower power than it is rated allows it to run cooloer and with less stress on its parts - it will last longer.

As a rule of thumb, reducing the operating temperature of electronic components by 10 Deg C doubles thier life.

The cooling air going into the PSU has already been heated by the CPU and everything else in the box, so it gets warmed air for cooling, not ambient air.  

This 550w PSU has two seperate 12v supplies.  Thats just an example, not a recommendation.  At that price, its at the low end of the quality range. I would expect to pay about £60 for a 550w or 600w mid range PSU.

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## LesCoke

The 550W Antec I rebuilt was not cheap, but it contained the same single 12V rail CWT crap that many cheap supplies have.  The newer Antec's are supposed to be better.  I would stick with a well known make / model.  My recent favorite is PC Power and Cooling supplies, they are a division of OCZ.  Somewhere on the web is a list of who makes who's PSU's.  Before buying any brand I would google the BAD CAP forums to see if anyone else has had problems with the supply you are looking at.

Slightly moving the capacitors around the heat sink should not have caused any damage, they will give a little before any damage occurs.  You should be okay if you do not see any leakage or doming.

Replacing the caps on this particular board was a challenge, and I have better than average soldering skills.  The main problem is the huge power planes within the board carry the heat away from the soldering iron making it difficult to get proper solder flow.   The CPU core voltage regulator caps on this board are a reasonably trusted brand / low ESR type and should have been fine, but heat is the enemy.  As Neddy said, reducing the temperature by 10 C degrees, will double the life expectancy.   These caps are rated for only 2000 hours at 105 C.  Under normal use they will also generate heat, so just because the CPU / MB temp is good, these caps can still get too hot. 

Les

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## schitthoch3

It is unbelievable how much poor quality is built into "cheap", "modern" hardware.

Now WOL does not work anymore. Not enough standby power i guess. This is really a pain in the arm ...

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## LesCoke

 *schitthoch3 wrote:*   

> It is unbelievable how much poor quality is built into "cheap", "modern" hardware.
> 
> 

 

It is unbelievable how much effort companies put into producing poor quality hardware,...

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## NeddySeagoon

schitthoch3,

The designs are all very similar. The engineering is aimed at a price point and lasting just longer than the warranty so the cost of warranty replacements is suitably low.

The only thing that can change is the quality of the parts.

Its unlikey WoL has failed because of lack of 5vStby. the power proved by 5v Stby is fairly common at 2.5A.

Investigate other things first - like something was disturbed when you changed PSUs or a pin pushed back in a connector.

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## schitthoch3

but, neither work acpi-wakeup and nvram-wakeup anymore ...

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## NeddySeagoon

schitthoch3,

Is the PSU going off properly, rather then into standby, so not even the 5vStby supply is present?

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