# NForce4 - is it worth buying?

## voytas

Hi Folks!

I am going to buy a new pc.

It would probably be the cheapest available sempron (754), what mobo would you suggest ?

I was thinking of Abit NV8 because it is nforce4 based mobo and it has PCI-express...

The question is: is it worth buying? How does gentoo run on nvidia chips?

Maybe i should buy the KV8 Pro ?

PS

I've searched through forums and it seems that integrated audio doesn't work (no hw mixing) with alsa driver. I don't like to nvidias OSS either...

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## drwook

KV8's work fine, AFAIK both are reasonably well supported.  I went with the 'cheapy' VIA route as support seemed better at the time, but also so I can justify getting a dual core when prices drop a little further  :Wink: 

Are Semperons even that much cheaper than bottom end Athlon64's now?  If it's not by much it's probably worth stumping up for a couple of hundred extra MHz and 2-4 times the cache...  Plus the I thought only the 'top end semperons' (oxymoron of the day  :Wink:  ) were 64 bit?

I doubt many if any onboard audio controllers have hardware mixing - I'd go buy a cheap SB Live 5.1 or Audigy off Ebay rather than let that affect your motherboard choice.

You're wanting PCI-E rather than AGP?  Steer clear of the NVidia 6200 from what I hear if you're a gamer, not from experience but has been said a number of times.

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## voytas

no, i am not a gamer, but sometimes i;d like to play americas-army with friends...

i do not want to spend all my money on PC...

so i am buying sempron and going to buy athlon64 (754) next year

a already have sblive, but wanted to use integrated sound since nowadays every mobo has it

what's better choice pci-express or agp8 ?

if agp then i'd choose via...

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## drwook

My AGP Nvidia Geforce FX 5600 Ultra is plenty enough for america's army - if you have a comparable AGP card around/cheaply available then AGP should do fine.  If not, I'd try to get something that will still be useful next time you upgrade & get PCI-E.  

If that's out of budget a good deal on AGP cards is usually available e.g. on ebay from people who are running to PCI-E, hence my position  :Wink: 

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## downey

The NForce4 chips run fine.  The onboard audio also works fine as well.  The issue you are referring to with OSS and non-harware mixing is related to NForce2 chips with the SoundStorm audio.  All NForce4 chips use something else for the onboard audio so it works with ALSA.  But if you have a seperate audio card you'll likely be better off using that.  If you are planning on upgrading then I would definitely go with PCI express as AGP is being phased out quite quickly.  I don't think any of the newest video cards from either NVidia or ATI will be AGP.  Plus I would definitely try to move up to a 939 socket as well but it really comes down to how much you plan to upgrade the system down the road.

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## voytas

Are you guys sure Nforce4 onboard audio works with alsa ?

(I mean full multichannel support)

 *downey wrote:*   

> Plus I would definitely try to move up to a 939 socket as well but it really comes down to how much you plan to upgrade the system down the road.

 Thats definitly impossible, i do not have so much money... (at first i was going to buy Socket A mobo)

The only reason i am buying new PC is that i can't upgrade my PC anymore (i815 sux)...

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## Headrush

 *voytas wrote:*   

>  *downey wrote:*   Plus I would definitely try to move up to a 939 socket as well but it really comes down to how much you plan to upgrade the system down the road. Thats definitly impossible, i do not have so much money... (at first i was going to buy Socket A mobo)
> 
> The only reason i am buying new PC is that i can't upgrade my PC anymore (i815 sux)...

 

I would hold off until you can afford the little extra for that next step up. 

You can be effective with your current setup still until that time. (Except for 3d games)

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## voytas

bad idea, this way i will never buy anything because when i have enough money to buy 939 mobo there will be newer socket and so on...

i'm buying 754 mobo in order to replace sempron with athlon64 in a year (because of 64bit, not the performance)

another question: ASUS or ABIT ?

(i like ABIT, because my previous mobo was ABIT VH6)

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## Headrush

 *voytas wrote:*   

> bad idea, this way i will never buy anything because when i have enough money to buy 939 mobo there will be newer socket and so on...

 

I didn't say you had to wait to buy the newest.

There are other many advantages to the 939 board, but you seem to have made your mind up already.   :Smile: 

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## voytas

 *Headrush wrote:*   

> There are other many advantages to the 939 board, but you seem to have made your mind up already.  

 could you give examples?

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## 96140

 *voytas wrote:*   

>  *Headrush wrote:*   There are other many advantages to the 939 board, but you seem to have made your mind up already.   could you give examples?

 

True dual-channel memory support, for one. Good luck finding a socket 754 board next year, unless it's used. AMD is completely phasing out 754. And, starting in the second quarter of 2006, AMD is introducing the new socket M2 processor series, which will replace socket 939.

If you really want to see a large number of excellent feature reviews and comparisons of socket 754 and 939 boards (including Nforce4 boards!), then check out The Tech Report. Search the motherboard articles; they put together (possibly) the best benchmarks and most thorough testing of anyone on the 'net. Also, take a look at AnandTech; they're also a great hardware resource.

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## voytas

 *nightmorph wrote:*   

> If you really want to see a large number of excellent feature reviews and comparisons of socket 754 and 939 boards (including Nforce4 boards!), then check out The Tech Report. Search the motherboard articles; they put together (possibly) the best benchmarks and most thorough testing of anyone on the 'net. Also, take a look at AnandTech; they're also a great hardware resource.

 Thanks for those links!

I've almost made my choise, it would be ABIT NV8 or ASUS K8N4-E Deluxe...

I like ABIT, but ASUS gives better equipped package... The cost is almost the same (in Poland ASUS costs 4$ more than ABIT...)

Do you know something about Semprons integrated memory controler? Is it SINGLE or DUAL Channel ?

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## enderandrew

I don't know about support for NForce 4 in Gentoo, but I have a NForce 4 Ultra board and I love it.  The chipset is great.  However, I would recommend not wasting money on the Semperon or 754.  When you look at bang for the buck, the sweet spot right now is the AMD 3000+ 939 processor.  You get the most processing power for your buck.  If you buy a 939 board, then you can upgrade to the high end AMD 64 later, or even a dual core 64 later.  If you buy a 734 board, you honestly may have trouble finding a 64-bit processor for it in the future.

AMD said they are already moving to a new socket next year called M2, and I imagine socket 734 processors are going to completely disappear.

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## voytas

 *enderandrew wrote:*   

> However, I would recommend not wasting money on the Semperon or 754.  When you look at bang for the buck, the sweet spot right now is the AMD 3000+ 939 processor.  You get the most processing power for your buck.  If you buy a 939 board, then you can upgrade to the high end AMD 64 later, or even a dual core 64 later.  If you buy a 734 board, you honestly may have trouble finding a 64-bit processor for it in the future.
> 
> AMD said they are already moving to a new socket next year called M2, and I imagine socket 734 processors are going to completely disappear.

 The point is i do not want to waste my money buying the newest, fastest processor!

YOu say that 754 Athlons64 will disappear from market? I do not think so, because there will always be posibility to buy them from the second hand... (And that's what I'm gonna do next year...)

The question is: Socket A or Socket 754 ?

I choose 754, because it has PCI-E (NForce4 boards) and New Sempron Support...

Also i can put one of the first Athlon64 on it!

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## enderandrew

As someone who keeps on up AMD news, AMD said last year they plan to largely abandon 754.  Stock on 754 processors is already rather low, and the second that M2 comes around, you're not going to find much for 754.  And considering they stopped making new 754 processors already, there won't be much of anything for an upgrade path.

A buddy of mine was looking at an AMD 3000+ system for 754 and 939.  At the time, none of the 754 boards have PCI-E, so in the end it was actually cheaper for him to go 939 since he saved $35 on the PCI-E version of his card.

9 times out of 10, when I really look I find that the 939 systems are pretty comparable in price.

And a 3000+ is far from the fastest and greatest thing on the market.  Slashdot the other day built an entire 3000+ system for $500, including HDD, optical drives and power supply.  I seriously suggest you price out a 3000+ 939 system and compare how much it will really cost you, compared to how much more you are getting in return.  Far more processing power, HyperTransport technology, a better upgrade path, true 64-bit processing, etc.

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## voytas

 *enderandrew wrote:*   

> As someone who keeps on up AMD news, AMD said last year they plan to largely abandon 754.  Stock on 754 processors is already rather low, and the second that M2 comes around, you're not going to find much for 754.  And considering they stopped making new 754 processors already, there won't be much of anything for an upgrade path.
> 
> A buddy of mine was looking at an AMD 3000+ system for 754 and 939.  At the time, none of the 754 boards have PCI-E, so in the end it was actually cheaper for him to go 939 since he saved $35 on the PCI-E version of his card.
> 
> 9 times out of 10, when I really look I find that the 939 systems are pretty comparable in price.
> ...

 As I've already written there are 754 boards with PCI-E (NForce4 based), i gave 2 examples...

Sempron price is about 50 Euro... compared to at least 120 Euro for cheapest 939 Athlon64...

I do not want to spend that money on CPU, because I definitly have some other needs (eg. DVD burner)

As you can see I am using an old Celeron Coppermine and I am happy with it's performance but need another PC...

I'd buy Pentium 3 S (512KB cache), but Sempron is much faster and cheaper!!

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## Hamman

I'm using a Sempron 2600+ (s754) and it does it's job. It's not the fastest processor around, but it's cheap and has decent performance. To clear some things up: 

* Semprons for s754 only support single channel memory

* Today you should be able to find a 64-bit Sempron. Here in Sweden, it's pretty hard to find non-64-bit Semprons anymore. Hence, you do not need to buy an Athlon64 later on just for 64-bit support.

* Via vs Nvidia is like Vi vs Emacs: a neverending discussion. Nvidia is usually better for overclocking so I went with a cheap Nforce3 board. I've been running my Sempron 2600+(1,6 ghz w 128kb cache)@3300+ (2000mhz, 8x250) for several months without any trouble. 

* I'd recommend the 2600+ as the faster models doesn't cost much less than an Athlon64 3000+. It's a bit on the slow side if you do not overclock it tough. If you don't want to take that risk, I'd recommend the 3000+. Either way, I'd go with a model with 128kb cache, as those with 256kb cost 10-15 more and won't give much of a performance increase. 

Read http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/sempron-2600.html and make up your mind yourself.

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## drwook

 *enderandrew wrote:*   

> And a 3000+ is far from the fastest and greatest thing on the market.  Slashdot the other day built an entire 3000+ system for $500, including HDD, optical drives and power supply.  I seriously suggest you price out a 3000+ 939 system and compare how much it will really cost you, compared to how much more you are getting in return.  Far more processing power, HyperTransport technology, a better upgrade path, true 64-bit processing, etc.

 

I've got a 'mere' Athlon 64 2800+ (oh yeah, bottom of the range Athlon 64).  It's socket 754.  

Sure, I maybe should have got a 939, but (considering I got this system about 8 months ago now) it cost me in all around £250.  That's about $400.  I've got a mid range (?) graphics card (NVidia 5600 ultra), an Audigy (I don't like onboard sound & hardware mixing is nice).  Half a gig of DDR-400, not huge but enough.  an 80 gig IDE hard drive (sure, SATA's nicer but meh.  Smallish, but I've thrown another 80 I had lying around in & it's enough for now), and a 16x DVD writer.

Sure, maybe I had to shop around, and buy a couple of bits second hand - but I did buy the 'bulk' of the machine (case, PSU, m/board, CPU and RAM) in one place.  & because I didn't insist on throwing twice the money at a 939 3400+ I had my eye on, I'm hopefully going to be able to grab a nice (though again not top of the range) dual core in around March or so.

I don't know what I would buy right now, but I wouldn't discount s754 unless there was no real price difference.  Top of the range is rarely worth it really - it very quickly becomes middle of the range anyway, & my 2800+ has never had a problem with anything I've thrown at it, from gcc and boinc to Americas Army and UT2004.

I guess my point is, don't get sucked in to anything without thinking it through.  

If you're not going to get a new machine any time soon, and don't plan to upgrade, then get something that will last you.  s754 is probably fine for most people in this situation.  If you're going to get a new machine in 12 to 18 months, get a 754 and save the cash for the next one.  

If you want an upgrade path with the same board, you need a 939 really.  Unless you trust those shonky s939 expansion boards some have come out with for their later s754 boards - I probably wouldn't though  :Wink: 

Purely on price, you'll probably want a via chipset board I'd guess.

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## voytas

 *drwook wrote:*   

> Purely on price, you'll probably want a via chipset board I'd guess.

 I was thinking of via, but their 754 chipsets support only AGP...

The only reason I am gonna buy NForce4 is that it has support for PCI-E...

Hamman, are you sure that there are 64bit Semprons? Never heard of that, but i'm not in business for a long time (since P3)...

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## Hamman

 *voytas wrote:*   

>  *drwook wrote:*   Purely on price, you'll probably want a via chipset board I'd guess. I was thinking of via, but their 754 chipsets support only AGP...
> 
> The only reason I am gonna buy NForce4 is that it has support for PCI-E...
> 
> Hamman, are you sure that there are 64bit Semprons? Never heard of that, but i'm not in business for a long time (since P3)...

 

Oh yes, see for example http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20050801/. Not that I trust TH, but at they're good enough for proving the existance of CPUs  :Wink: 

Regarding your motherboard choice: if the Nforce4 is decently priced and has the features you want, go for it. 

And as for CPUs. sure, a s939 system would be easier to upgrade later on, but if you don't need a lot of preformance a s754 setup should serve you well. On the TH link above you can see that a Sempron 2600+ overclocked to 2 ghz is roughly equal (maybe a tad slower) than a 3000+ Venice. Pretty good, as it costs half as much. Of course you could overclock the Athlon64 too, but the point is that the Sempron should be adequate.

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## enderandrew

Most of the time when I price an actual comparable system, the price difference between 754 and 939 for the same hardware is $30 or less.  If he doesn't want to spend more than $50 for a proc, so be it.  That's his budget.  But claiming that he will have an upgrade path in the future with a 734 board just isn't the truth.

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## drwook

Sure.  If you're gonna be upgrading the processor on that same board at a later date you're probably much better off forking out for a 939.  If not, or if you're probably not upgrading until next time you'll want to get a new mobo anyway, then there's nothing wrong with going s754.

I'd say get a low end 754 (or 939 if comparable price, but would guess 754 would still save you some) 'real' Athlon 64 (a 3000+ probably) and delay the inevitable next upgrade a little.  

I've just had a scout around and looks like even 'top end' 64-bit semperons are 333 FSB and have 128k to 256k cache, I'd avoid if possible.  Either would be enough for me to give them a miss, even if it delays your upgrade a month or two to get some extra spare cash.

I'm sure they're much nicer than your P3 but still  :Wink: 

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## voytas

I've searched google for a little and it seems that new Semprons are athlons with reduced cache (128 or 256). They all have 64bit instruction set (i'm not sure if they support sse3).

Sempron 2600+ is clocked at 1600MHz, but it can go as far as 2400MHz !!

At that clocking it gives better performance than Athlon64 3400+ !!

It seems that having this Sempron I would not have to worry about performance for at least 3-4 years...

And having PCI-E on board, I can upgrade my Graphic Card as soon as it becomes not enough for me...

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## Hamman

 *drwook wrote:*   

> Sure.  If you're gonna be upgrading the processor on that same board at a later date you're probably much better off forking out for a 939.  If not, or if you're probably not upgrading until next time you'll want to get a new mobo anyway, then there's nothing wrong with going s754.
> 
> I'd say get a low end 754 (or 939 if comparable price, but would guess 754 would still save you some) 'real' Athlon 64 (a 3000+ probably) and delay the inevitable next upgrade a little.  
> 
> I've just had a scout around and looks like even 'top end' 64-bit semperons are 333 FSB and have 128k to 256k cache, I'd avoid if possible.  Either would be enough for me to give them a miss, even if it delays your upgrade a month or two to get some extra spare cash.
> ...

 

All Semprons for Socket s754 have an FSB of 400mhz

 *voytas wrote:*   

> I've searched google for a little and it seems that new Semprons are athlons with reduced cache (128 or 256). They all have 64bit instruction set (i'm not sure if they support sse3).
> 
> Sempron 2600+ is clocked at 1600MHz, but it can go as far as 2400MHz !!
> 
> At that clocking it gives better performance than Athlon64 3400+ !!
> ...

 

The newest batch of Semprons support SSE3. The older ones with only SSE2 should be replaced by now. 

Keep in mind that there's no guarantee that you'll be able to oveclock it that high. Do not buy it if you can't live with the performance at stock rate, or you will be very dissapointed should it not overclock. Most should overclock really well, but my point is that there's a risk it wont.

And go with a Nforce4 board, they generally overclock better than their Via counterparts.

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## enderandrew

 *voytas wrote:*   

> I've searched google for a little and it seems that new Semprons are athlons with reduced cache (128 or 256). They all have 64bit instruction set (i'm not sure if they support sse3).
> 
> Sempron 2600+ is clocked at 1600MHz, but it can go as far as 2400MHz !!
> 
> At that clocking it gives better performance than Athlon64 3400+ !!
> ...

 

Flat out BS.  No built in memory controller.  No support for dual-channel memory.  No HyperTransport.  128k cache vs 1 meg of cache.  333/400 mHz FSB compared to a 2000 mHz FSB.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

In actual benchmarks, the greatest performance for your dollar BY FAR AND AWAY is the AMD 3000+

I'd be more than happy to hunt down benchmarks and prove you unequivocably wrong.

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## voytas

 *enderandrew wrote:*   

> Flat out BS.  No built in memory controller.  No support for dual-channel memory.  No HyperTransport.  128k cache vs 1 meg of cache.  333/400 mHz FSB compared to a 2000 mHz FSB.
> 
> You're comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> In actual benchmarks, the greatest performance for your dollar BY FAR AND AWAY is the AMD 3000+
> ...

 Better read before posting...

As I've said we are talking about new Semprons...

And you are in the age of socket A ones...

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## enderandrew

Well, looking at the brand new Semperons, it seems that have improved.

However, does it have the on-board memory controller?  No.

Does it support dual channel memory?  No.

Does it have hypertransport technology?  No.

Does it have the 1 meg of cache?  No.

Does it have a lower FSB?  No.

Do all of those affect performance in a major way?  Yes.  CPU's aren't the bottlenecks they once were.  However, a smaller cache, a lack of dual-channel memory support, a lack of onboard memory controller, and a lower FSB will lower performance in every way possible on your system.

You mention the ability to overclock.  Yet you forget to mention the AMD 3000+ line is right now regarded as the single best processor for overclocking.  People are doing insane overclocks on it with a stock HSF.

Nevermind the countless articles by experts declaring the 3000 the best processor for the dollar.

Extremetech just ran a series of tests, and the 3000 DESTROYED every chip it went against on the AMD and Intel side.  In various tests it provided 3-4 times the power for the dollar of other chips.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1876694,00.asp

The question of the matter is the upgrade path.  I say you don't have one.  AMD's official press releases says the 754 is being abandoned.  Yet you insist otherwise.  Now you sidetrack, but if you want to spend $50 for your proc, go right ahead.  That's your call.  The fact remains that AMD said M2 is the future, and they want everything to move to M2.  However M2 is a derivative of 939/940.  The manufacturing process is the same.  So they can make 939/940 processors right alongside M2.  However, they can't make 754 processors on the same lines.

Getting a 939 board will allow true 64-bit processors, the high end AMD 64 line, and the X2 line in the future, all of which are on 939.  My point all along has been that the 754 line doesn't have that upgrade path.

You foolish maintain there is a mysterious path to upgrade, but sadly it doesn't exist.

Let's compare.  Let's say in the future you wanted to upgrade to a 754 AMD 64 processor, which you may or may even be able to find in stock.  As it is, Newegg barely has any now.  The 754 3000+ is slower and more expensive than the 939 3000+

You pay $16 more for a processor that is 1.8 gHz instead of 2.0 gHz, doesn't support SSE3, runs at a higher voltage, runs hotter, doesn't overclock as well, etc.  That sure sounds like a brillian upgrade plan to me!

As the processors get more and more rare, they will get even more expensive in comparison.

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## voytas

 *enderandrew wrote:*   

> However, does it have the on-board memory controller?  No.

 Yes

 *enderandrew wrote:*   

> Does it support dual channel memory?  No.

 no (as well as 754 Athlons)

 *enderandrew wrote:*   

> Does it have hypertransport technology?  No.

 Yes

 *enderandrew wrote:*   

> Does it have the 1 meg of cache?  No.

 NO

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